Monday, June 24, 2013

Spanking for Jesus? A refutation

Recently, the Daily Beast interviewed Clint and Chelsea from Learning Domestic Discipline. 

Not surprisingly, the interview painted quite a negative picture of DD. I was happy to see Clint and Chelsea gave their sides of the story. I commend them for putting themselves on the line like this. 

Interestingly, there's been a surge of interest in Domestic Discipline, both negative and positive. 

I read the article. It angered me. I rolled my eyes. There are so many things wrong with this article, it's hard to even know where to begin, but I figure we have to start somewhere. So why even waste my time and energy writing in response to this? A have many reasons.

First, Clint and Chelsea deserve the support for all they've done for the DD Community. Second, this article has gone viral. The Huffington Post has now caught on, and the witch hunt for men who spank their wives is currently in full swing. And third, because there are many, many, many people like myself who desire DD, who benefit from DD, but have deep-seated reservations. They wonder if they're normal. They wonder if there's something wrong with them. So this little blog post is for them. 

Any reader of this blog knows we practice Domestic Discipline. They also know that I would never want to stop. They would also know that I am by no means an abused wife -- in fact, I feel loved, cherished and cared for, and my marriage of over a decade has never been better. 

So here's a refutation from someone in the trenches. 

When I first read the article Spanking for Jesus, the first thought going through my mind was, "But what about consent?" The writer of this article, Ms. Zadrozny, seems to have spent some time in the world of DD, on blogs and forums, reading just enough to paint an inaccurate picture, but not enough to really know what she's talking about. Journalism at its best, eh?

There are many. many issues I have with this article, but I'll begin with the first three.

Consent, consent, consent.





Did it escape your notice, Ms. Zadrozny, that the vast majority of couples who practice DD do so because the wife desired it? There is a phrase we in the DD community use: SSC DD. Safe, Sane, Consensual Domestic Discipline.

This is not Ned Flanders spanking his wife because she burnt supper and Jesus told him to teach her a thing or two. Good grief. This is a practice used by couples who desire to grow closer together by embracing traditional roles. Period. 

The second major issue I have with this article is that the huge majority of Christians who practice DD do not do so because they think Jesus wants them to. How do I know this? Because I've spent a good deal of time in the community. 

There are many. many couples who practice DD who are Christian. They believe the husband is the head of the house and that the Bible endorses this concept. Agreed. 

There are many. many Christians who practice DD. They believe DD brings them closer together and is a means of making their marriage stronger. 

But there are very, very few couples who believe DD is commanded by scripture. There are some that do, and if it works for them, I'm not gonna rock that boat. That's their deal. If it works for them, that's their business. But do understand, dear readers, that this is by no means the norm within DD circles. Not even close.

In fact, off the top of my head, I can name several dozen couples I know who are Christians who practice DD, and not a single one of them believe DD is commanded by Scripture. My husband and I certainly fit into this category. 

The third major issue I have, which is perhaps the most disturbing accusation of all, revolves around the accusation of abuse. According to Ms. Zadrozny's misguided opinion, husbands who spank their wives are no different from men who beat their wives.

Is there the potential that a man given the power to discipline his wife could abuse that power? Yes, of course.

There's also the potential that a loving husband making love to his wife could rape her. 

A horrifying thought? It is. Frankly, the thought of their husbands abusing them is just as horrifying to a DD couple as the thought of a husband raping his wife.

Abuse is motivated by control. Domestic Discipline is motivated by love. 

Abuse forces one's will on another. Domestic Discipline is based on mutual consent. .

Abuse belittles and demeans. Domestic Discipline draws a couple closer together.

Abuse is based on fear. Domestic Discipline is based on trust. 




 So no, Ms. Zadrozny. We are not abused women. In fact, it must've been pretty damn hard for you to dig through the piles and piles and piles of blogs of happy DD couples to find the select few who say it doesn't work for them. They do exist, of course, because we are human. People make mistakes. Not everyone is perfect. Just as marriage does not always work out for everyone, certainly a DD arrangement isn't going to work out for everyone, and the reasons are many and varied. But to equate DD with domestic violence? Puh-lease. Not by a long shot. 

In fact, Kat from "My Contented Home" gives a beautiful illustration about the difference between the abuse she suffered in the past and the loving marriage she now has, in a marriage that incorporates Domestic Discipline.

Oh and if anyone gives credence to the supposed "mental health experts" quoted in this article, I urge you to go on over and read the View of a Mental Health Professional in a DD relationship of her own! 

Now for the accusation that this is all about a sexual fetish. There is no question of the erotic appeal of Domestic Discipline. None whatsoever. Let's be honest. Most people agree that  Being Taken in Hand is hot. In fact, in my humble opinion, the vast majority of DD couples never would've agreed to a DD arrangement if it were not for the erotic undertones. Being punished is not hot. We'll save the real sexy stuff for the Good Girl Spankings.

If this were all about sex, there would be no benefit other than a few good orgasms. But couples who are in a DD relationship report so much more than that. When a couple takes the steps to define their roles in a more traditional light, a funny thing happens. They find themselves drawn closer together. Marital discord is a thing of the past. Yes, by all means, intimacy increases astronomically. But there is far more at play here than hanky spanky games. 

The fact remains, women want real men. 



We look no further than popular books and movies to prove this fact. Who are the most popular male leads? The alpha males, dear readers. 

What is the appeal of Christian Gray, I ask? He is a sexy dominant man and women want real men. 

We want men who take charge. Deep in our bones we want to know we are with a man who will protect us even when that means protecting us from ourselves. 

The truth is, there are many, many, many women who want this type of arrangement. 

Yes, there are no brick and mortar Domestic Discipline churches, as the article puts it, because it's not a religion. It's not even a lifestyle!  It is a personal, private choice a couple makes. My husband and I share our DD arrangement with very, very few people we know in real life, not because we are ashamed, or because it's embarrassing, but because it is a highly personal decision, like sharing intimate, personal details of our sex life. 

The article states that people who practice DD are a secretive group. This is absolutely true. But the reason behind the anonymity is completely off base. Ms. Zadrozny proposes the reason is because we are largely ashamed of our choices, and because we want to keep lying to ourselves about the real reasons we desire DD. Not true, Ms. Zadrozny. I don't keep my identity hidden because I'm ashamed of my choices. I keep my identity hidden because of people like you.

For those of you who desire DD. Look deeper than the outrageous accusations in this article. You are not alone. 

For those of you in a DD relationship. If this works for you, give no thought to those like Ms. Zadronzy who misunderstand and misrepresent. 

If this works for you, do it. And know you are not alone.



44 comments:

  1. I don't live what I consider a CDD style of DD either, but this whole thing is disturbing. None of the so called "reporters" did any research.
    The original reporter approached me to be part of the first article in question. I asked her a few cursory questions and could easily see she had done none of the research she claimed, and had a separate agenda from what she initially presented as the focus of the article. She wanted to ask "spanking" questions about how hard, how long, for what... but had no interest in a DD relationship dynamic based on communication, love and trust. I politely declined her offer and asked that she keep the ADDS site out of her article.
    I'm glad that others in our community are starting to post their opinions and feelings based on real life experience.
    The writers who are copy/pasting each others content are sad excuses for journalists and are trying to shock and spread un-researched opinion thinly veiled as fact. Sadly those outside our community are continuing to believe it as fact and it sets us back years in getting out correct information that may help others seeking this dynamic in the future.
    I hope more people step forward like you and a few others have and help get the truth back out there.
    # MrBBSpanker

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    1. Thank you, MrBB, and I hope others come forward as well. It's unfortunate that dishonest journalists have painted us in such a negative light, but hopefully the publicity can help us reach out to those who desire this arrangement but didn't know where to turn.

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  2. Thank you for your support, Jason's Girl. Very well written. I think you know how we feel about the article. A very irresponsible and sensationalized portrayal of the DD lifestyle, to say the least.

    Thank you for writing this, and again, thank you for your support.

    -- Clint & Chelsea

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    1. You're more than welcome, Clint and Chelsea. The community at large has benefited from your experience and help, and a post in your defense was the least I could do to thank you.

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  3. I think people should do whatever makes them happy, but I have some questions. What kind of offence warrants discipline? If not for something like burning supper, then what? And what happens when your husband screws up? You seem like an intelligent person, so I am certain you are not operating under the philosophy that he is a perfect, faultless person. Is there something built into your arrangement that allows you recourse for changing HIS bad behavior? Not judging….just trying to understand.

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    1. Sure, I'd be happy to answer your questions and I do thank you for your respectful response. I well know this arrangement is not for everyone.

      As far as offenses that would warrant discipline, that varies greatly from couple to couple. My most recent "infractions," if you will, were doing things that were dangerous, such as texting while driving, or speeding. Texting while driving was one of the first I ever got in trouble for.At the top of this blog post is a page of "rules" we have. They are agreed-upon.

      My husband and I have a relationship built on mutual respect. He is not a dictator by any stretch of the imagination. Though we are equal in respect and worth, I do not view us as equals in authority. So when the time comes that we make a decision, we always discuss it, he always listens, and he gets the final say.

      It is to be noted that he gets the final say because I consent to this. This is a key component of a DD arrangement.

      Some DD arrangements *do* allow for both husband and wife to mete out discipline, but that would not work for us at all.

      So no, I do not believe my husband is perfect and without fault. When he does something he shouldn't, I respectfully discuss it with him and he apologizes, and he will make amends for what he's done. He expects give and take from me, so I honestly tell him what I think, but I don't nag.


















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    2. Interesting! It took some time, but I think I get it. It is all about the lens through which we view our respective relationships, and it truly is about personal choice. It was initially difficult for me to understand the nature of your relationship because mine (with my husband) is so different. Like your relationship, we are “equals in respect and worth” but unlike yours, we are also equals in authority. When it comes to tackling challenge and conflict, we communicate, strategize and execute very effectively together as equals. Because that setup works so well for us, and is the foundation of our happiness, it is the lens through which I see (and, admittedly, judge) other relationships.
      All that being said, though, I can see the appeal of relinquishing control. I have a job which can be very stressful. I am regularly responsible for the end-result of some very “high-stakes” deals. There are a lot of days where I go home thinking “It sounds so lovely to just go back to being a worker bee. Let someone else be in charge!” So I can see how your arrangement could eliminate a lot of the stress/anxiety of the day to day…particularly if your husband wants the control and doesn’t feel burdened by it. Basically, if it works for the two of you, and it supports and promotes your happiness, then I say good for you!
      So I think I’m almost there, but I do still have 2 points of confusion. Hopefully my questions are not too intrusive…I just find this all very fascinating.
      1) You said you are “equals in respect and worth, but not in authority.” Authority is just the right or power to enforce the rules right? So I understand that he enforces them, but did he create the rules autonomously, or did you create the rules together as equals? I’m not talking about the dom/sub arrangement itself – you were very clear that is something you both agreed upon and entered into willingly – but rather the actual rules. I’m just wondering what happens when he makes a rule that you fundamentally disagree with? Which leads me to my next question…
      2) The kids. Parenting children is complicated….to say the least. There are times when my husband and I face TOUGH parenting decisions (as all parents do.) Sometimes we agree on what to do, but sometimes we don’t. Usually when we disagree, we apply our normal method of talking it through and reaching a decision together. But sometimes my inner mamma bear is CERTAIN what the right call is. Sometimes I know from the very core of my heart, and with every fiber of my being what the right call is. I can’t ever imagine a scenario where I would submit to my husband’s wishes if they contradicted mamma bear. Do you ever run into this? Is there a “loophole” in your arrangement for decisions regarding your children?

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    3. Again thanks for your questions. I enjoy a good discussion even if we disagree! I think the being able to dialogue with one another can help us understand each other better.

      Yes, I do love being able to let go of that control. My husband's line is "I've got you." Sometimes it's not easy for him but he sees the benefit of this dynamic in our marriage.

      To answer your questions. Yes, we make our decisions regarding expectations together. For example, I am expected to get to the gym and will be in trouble if I don't go. I *asked* him to motivate me to go! I want that kick in the pants. This certainly wouldn't work for everyone but it works for me. And likely wouldn't work for me AT ALL if he didn't have my consent. (I'd probably feel belittled or demeaned). However, there have been a few times he's asked me to do something and I've been expected to obey him and I didn't want to. One example is swearing. He asked me to please stop. I thought he was being stuffy. But after he explained his reasoning, I saw his point and have made an effort to obey him.

      As for Mama Bear...I can tell you that before we used DD I undermined my husband's authority by stepping in and overruling him. I no longer do that. If we disagree I always defer to him. But I trust him completely because he is a phenomenal father. That said, he fully respects my mothering as well and will always listen to whatever I say. But I present my thoughts respectfully and privately because we like to provide a united front to our children. If there is a major disagreement we talk and talk and talk...in any relationship, DD or not, one party has to concede to the other in case of a deadlock. Here, I concede to him. But he is an honest and loving person and if in retrospect if he's made a mistake he will admit it.

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  4. Please don't resort to the "real men" argument. There are plenty of "real men" who don't have to spank to lead their households. If you all want to do this, fine. More power to you. BUT, don't make yourselves feel better by putting others who don't practice this down (as you subtly do with your comment concerning "real men.") Even some men in Taken in Hand relationships consider any physical control off limits. And while I admire you for admitting that there is an erotic basis to DD, other bloggers deny that, which is why it is looked upon as abuse.

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    1. I stand by my "real men" argument. It's your reading between the lines that comes across as an insult, not what I've said. What I said was that women want to be with REAL MEN and the argument for that is STRONG. What I also said was that those of us who desire to be dominated do so BECAUSE of our desire to be with manly men.

      I never said men have to spank their wives to be "real men," and I do apologize to anyone who may have construed my comment as meaning a man is less of a man because he doesn't put his wife over his knee. ;)

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    2. There are plenty of people who would argue that a "real man" would never need to hit a woman in any way, shape, or form.

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    3. Sure. Clearly, I'm not one of those people. ;)

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    4. So you do think real men sometimes need to hit a woman. Nice.

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    5. Alright, you really want to continue this conversation? Let's do it.

      You want to make a blanket statement that men should never hit women. By making this statement you are trying to pin me into a corner. I can either a) agree with your statement and thereby contradict my support of consensual DD or b) disagree with your statement and thus appear that I support and condone immoral and repulsive behavior (domestic violence).

      So my response is to neither. I will neither affirm or deny your blanket statement because I don't believe it's true. And guess what? I'll bet you don't either.

      How about a few examples, shall we? A wife is choking in a restaurant. She has something stuck in her throat. Her husband whacks her on the back to save her life. But no, wait! You said men should never hit their wives. Far better that she choke to death than a man hit a woman, right? Of course not. As I said, let's not coerce each other into making blanket statements.

      Here's another blanket statement I will never agree to, and I'd like to urge you to think about it. "What is right for me is also right for you." Wrong. We live in a free country and we can make whatever decisions WE think are best for our marriage.

      You and I can agree on one thing, however. Men should never, EVER abuse their wives, in ANY way, shape or form. Can we agree to that?

      Now you want to equate a spanking with abuse. I say it is consensual. So how about we agree to disagree? You keep your nose out of my amazing, kick-ass marriage and I'll keep my nose out of yours. Fair enough?

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    6. Just to stick my kinky nose in - my "real man" sometimes needs to hit me because I like it. I physically enjoy it.

      It took quite some convincing for him to be okay with it, but after many years of reassuring him that I like it, he's perfectly okay fulfilling that desire of mine.

      "There's no right way to hit a woman," is actually not quite true. There are actually several right ways, if the woman likes it. :)

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  5. Very well said Jason's girl!! Love it :)

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    1. Thanks, Tricia, and thanks for stopping by.

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  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Thank you, Kay. I've only been blogging for a few months but really enjoy it. Thanks for stopping by!

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  7. The majority of dd blogs do NOT admit that it's sexual and that if there was no sexual element to it, they wouldn't practice it. It's a fetish, pure and simple. However it seems that most in your ' community' don't want to admit that. Are they embarrrassed? I don't know, but they are lying to themselves. There's no need to be embarrrassed over a sexual fetish, no need to feel ashamed.

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    1. I cannot presume to know why some deny the erotic attraction of domination, but I can give you my opinion. The answer to this is really worthy of a blog post all on its own (thanks for the idea), but I'll try to keep it short.

      There are some people who have NO sexual attraction to spanking whatsoever, but desire DD for the simple reason that it works for them. .It motivates the submissive partner to behave and they respond well to negative deterrents. But in DD circles, those people are really very few and far between.

      But most people – really, the HUGE majority of people who practice DD – have at least a mild draw to the spank “kink.” It arouses them. And that is where the initial attraction lies. Most enjoy erotic spanking. In fact, I can guarantee you there are people who don't practice DD who read this blog post and think, “Wow, that is hot.”

      However, DD is not just sexual play. It is not just a fetish. Those who have a spanking fetish can go to a spanking party or post a singles ad and fulfill their sexual spanking desires. DD is not to be confused with a sexual fetish. DD is a real recognition of one partner as the Dominant Partner and another as the Submissive Partner. For that reason, many don't discuss the erotic nature of domination, because they don't want to detract from the real purpose.

      That said, some think the sexual desire to be spanked is disordered or unusual, so they repress any thoughts that may be arousing. They think something is wrong with them that they are attracted to the dominance aspect. It's not disordered or unusual. It's actually incredibly popular. Fifty Shades, anyone? And it's for this reason I try to be honest about the erotic undertones.

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  8. A Fantastic and very good article I have not read this article you are commenting on but what you have written here is very informative both for those who are seeking and those who practice DD

    Jane

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  9. Very well written JG. I agree with the reasoning behind not mentioning the sexual aspect for many on Dd blogs. Most women share their struggles and their emotions and don't want the sexual attraction to take away from the lives that they have chosen to share. But if one were to dig on a majority of the Dd blogs, there is usually at least one post that discusses some form of attraction to the dominance factor of their partner.

    willie

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  10. For the record, I will allow posters to comment even if they disagree with me. But I will not allow insulting or derogatory comments about me, my husband, or my family on my blog. For that reason, I've removed several comments.

    By all means, readers are welcome to disagree but again, please do so respectfully.

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  11. I loved this post. My husband and I are Christians too, but dont do this because if it. Your post is all my thoughts written down. I wish I could write so well.

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  12. Jasons Girl,

    I loved this post and I have been contemplating one of my own. I hope to get it together soon. I noticed your comment above and that is the line in which my post will go.

    Thank you for referring to my blog post as well.

    Kat

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    1. I look forward to reading your reply, Kat!

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  13. I am not yet a "real" reader of your blog, but I popped over here as I was trying to figure out what in the world was going on with all this mess. I think your response is well done and I just wanted to commend you...

    I'm a very very new blogger and getting to know other bloggers better one by one.. I'll add you to my list of blogs to check out :)

    all the best,
    Bekah

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  14. I wish I had the tactful tongue that you possess! You're respectful, head-held-high responses amaze me(: I commend you for not "taking the bait" and sinking to the rude, ill-informed comments that were posted. Your "agree to disagree" mentality is one I hope to copy. As a happy, loved, cherished wife in a DD relationship (who is not "kinky", "disgusting", "dishonest"), I echo what you have said 100%.
    Maybe this naysayer really wants the relationship you have, cannot have it, and is jealous of you. Their only way of expressing this frustration is to be combative with people who have what they secretly need and want.
    Kudos to you and I wish you and your husband the best!(:

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  15. What a great post. Can't believe I've never visited here before. :) I think your arguments and points of view were great. Thank you for sharing. :) I agree, I don't tell people about DD in real life and I don't ever talk about my intimate relationship with my husband either. One friend knows about DD, the rest I know couldn't handle it right now. If I ever feel they're ready, I'll talk to them too. But for now, it is better for them that they not know. One day I hope to shout it from the rooftops! :)

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  16. What a post! I think you're pretty freakin' awesome for telling it how it is, in such a respectful manner. I'm SO sick of reading the annoying comments from people who just want to bash it. There are a lot of things I don't agree with in this world, but ya know what? I don't seek out blogs to go BASH those things. It shows the immaturity of these people. Good for you for this post!

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  17. Thank you for telling it like it is. Such judgmental articles from an idiot that doesn't know or care to know about what they are talking about.

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  18. Very well-written post. And very well-spoken comments. Thank you for taking the time to refute the nonsense.

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  19. Would like to talk to you about the possibility of re-publishing this article.. I couldn't find an email address for you... could you please get in touch via our Contact Us facility:

    http://www.wellredweekly.com/index.php?func=contact

    Thanks.

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    1. Thanks. I've sent an email but can be reached at jasonsgirl001@gmail.com

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  20. Hi, I just wanted to say I think the article is terrible: it makes it seem like anyone who practices DD is abusive or embarrassed, or that if you're a Christian, you have to do it. I admit I was a bit closeminded when I first heard about dd, but I didn't think it was fair to judge someone without researching it from another perspective. Then I came across your blog and learned that I was wrong lol. I enjoy reading it and find it fascinating and am wondering if I'd like certain elements to incoporate in my life. Just ignore the haters and keep on being happy and an inspiration

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  21. Domestic discipline would never work for me. If my husband wanted to punish me he'd have to NOT give me a spanking.

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